I read this yesterday, about the best places to live on the planet, based on a quality of life score (“factors [included] health services, political stability, traffic congestion, crime, media censorship, pollution, mail services, and even the variety and quality of restaurants and theatre,” according to another article). I’ll summarize for you: Europe-Europe-Europe-Canada-Europe-Europe… and so on.
I always feel a little bewildered when I hear people absolutely terrified that our government is going to make us more like Europe. Huh? I can understand a whole host of political viewpoints, objections, opinions, but that one frankly makes no sense to me. I guess there is a seedy underbelly of Europe I just don’t know about. I mean, I’m only half kidding, because I’ve only been to a European city once, and I was a tourist, so really how the heck would I know? I guess since there aren’t commercials on TV with crying, shoeless European children and a narrator telling me that “just thirty-eight cents a day feeds a child!!” and since their cities always top these Best Places list, well Europe just doesn’t sound like a very bad Worst Case Scenario to me…
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Europe is an awesome place… unless you like hunting. And there are some of the most fun roads on the planet in Europe… if you can afford to buy a really expensive car and risk wrecking it/ killing yourself. And the houses? Opulent, to say the least… unless you get off the “touristy” map and look behind the scenes, where most homes are smaller than yours and mine, built with building standards way lower than yours and mine. That is, unless, of course, you can afford a house to match the recently-demolished car you just took on (and off) the Audubon. And yes, the health care systems may be standardized, but that sort of thing goes out the window if you want to pick the doctor who treats you for the injuries sustained when you wrecked the really nice car on the really fun road on the way to your really expensive house. As for media censorship? I’m all for it, myself. Yeah, you may miss the truth of what’s really going on. But I’d gladly pick that option over letting my kids one day be able to view “legal” televised porn whenever they have a whim.
But here’s the real measure of a country, at least in my opinion: how many people are trying to get there? How many people are risking their lives/ jobs/ families to move there? I can’t remember hearing about how so-and-so are moving to Europe because they have all of these freedoms and great opportunities. Maybe someday soon I will.
All very worthy points, indeed. Except the hunting, which I don’t personally like, so I don’t really care.
Actually, I do know that in France you can absolutely choose your doctors. You can see whatever specialist you like. And so on. The system is set up similar to ours, except the government foots the bill. Seems to work, though, because they’re also consistently ranked the best health care in the developed world.
As for immigration, I doubt European immigration issues would make the news here, so I have no idea what their situation is. If Europe shared a physical border with us, I think it’d be quite tempting…Canada is just too darn cold.
One thing to point out about France and their health care: The government pays doctors on a merit based system. Those who don’t have as many repeat visits or treatments are most successful are paid more. In essence, they have competition (just footed by the government, unfortunately). That is what is missing in our system, true competition. But that could delve into a deeper boring economics lesson…
I’m sure you’d find a way to make economics quite interesting. And a lot of us are quite interested in economics right now, besides… It’s an interesting shift in perspective. I know doctors here want the best for their patients, but it’s an interesting psychological shift when the doctors with the “healthiest” patients get paid the most, as compared to doctors being paid more for more procedures, more visits, etc.
How about we take a step back from the FOX news propaganda for a moment? Boo hoo, you can’t choose your doctors in Europe. How much choice do you really have in the United States? How many people in our fantastic free country don’t have health insurance and have to treat the emergency room as their doctor’s office? And even as someone who has insurance, I can’t see much value in our current system. You have to make an appointment to see the dentist 6 months in advance. Many doctors aren’t taking new patients. If you ever want to see the actual doctor vs the nurse practitioner or PA, good luck. Doctors here are focused on weaseling more money out of you by ordering unnecessary procedures and tests instead of actually treating you. Most look at alternative or natural medicine with scorn, despite the fact that it can really help patients. I could go on and on…
And people are immigrating to Europe, from Africa, from Turkey, from India, from China. Every day You just don’t see Europeans freaking out about it and establishing rogue citizen border patrols. My family came to this country 18 years ago, and I am grateful for that, but I am also not going to look at it through rose-tinted glasses. America has some real problems to tackle, with health care, education, the economy, etc. I really hope our President can move the country in the right direction.
P.S. I have no idea what that comment about houses means. Yes, they are smaller in Europe. What’s wrong with having a smaller footprint? Does a family of 4 really need 2500 square feet of living space?
Yeah, as good as competition is to ensure that doctors don’t cling to patients too long, it could also turn into luck of the draw… if a doctor tries to manipulate the system somehow so he only has healthier patients, he’ll get more bank than a doctor who may be more tender-hearted and seeks out those who are truly ill to help.
I would move to Europe for their work systems… open business at 9am, go home for lunch, close the place at 3… and I’m not kidding, they close early! They close mid afternoon, or they close when they run out of food, or they close because they feel like it… and they get some great vacation time.
Oh, how I love the thought of it.
I guess it all depends on what you’re used to, the space issue that is. When Jesse and I first got married, we lived in an apartment that had probably 800 square feet if that. We thought we were in a palace! We had moved out of apartments we shared with roommates, and now we had our very own kitchen, all to ourselves, and so on. Then we bought lots of stuff to fill the apartment and it seemed small. When we moved to NC we first lived in an apartment with probably 1100 square feet. Wow! So big! And we bought lots of stuff and it seemed small. Then we moved to our house–nearly 1300 square feet! What? Crazy big. Now we’ve gotten a lot of junk and it feels small, because so-and-so has a 1500 square feet house. If we had an extra 200 square feet, it sure would make a difference…and on and on.
Which is not really a commentary about Europe, but I guess I’m trying to say that what I do know is that Americans like their stuff. We really do. So, if Europe means less stuff, then I can understand why people would be freaking out about it. Less stuff is at its essence un-American. But also, we love to compare ourselves to others (and this is probably a human thing, not an American thing, if I had to guess) and when a normal family of four has a 2500 square feet house, you start to think that’s what a family of four needs. If we all lived in smaller places, I bet we wouldn’t think too much about how small they were. We’d just have a little less stuff and that would be that.
Re: doctors: I’m sure in any system, you will have people taking advantage and not doing the right thing, but we can hope it wouldn’t be the majority.
Re: vacation time: YES! I think our country (as much as I do love it, really–I don’t want anyone to think I’m just down on America…I’m just trying to be realistic here. We have a great country, but it’s flawed like any place, and I don’t think it’s wrong to want it to be fixed and improved) anyway, our country has some pretty unhealthful work habits. I would gladly downsize to a smaller house and a crappier car if I got in exchange forty days of vacation per year. Even if I couldn’t afford to take a lavish vacation, can you imagine that much time off in a year?
Re: smaller houses. We just moved from a 900 sq foot apartment to a 1200 sq foot house. We have one whole bedroom that we never go into. It’s nice to have a dedicated guest room, but it has been used only 4 times in the 6 months we’ve lived there. To most Europeans, I’m sure that would seem like a waste. But we also don’t live in a big city. Even in the U.S., space in cities is a premium. I’m sure most New Yorkers would think my house is enormous!
Re: vacation time. I am lucky to have 3 weeks of vacation time, plus 10 sick days a year. I also work a 37.5 hour week. But it’s still not enough. I would love to have 4-5 weeks off a year. That way, I could travel to Europe more often
Wow, three weeks–that’s really good (compared to what most people get). Jesse’s been lucky with his job. He gets two weeks right now but will get three weeks starting next year. Can’t wait! It’s not a month off, but it will certainly give us a little more wiggle room for weekend trips and time off for projects at home, that type of thing.
Our guest room also rarely gets used. It becomes a junk room for all the stuff we don’t want the cats to get into (Oliver has a “destroying stuff” problem). It does feel like a waste of space. The sad thing is, it’s one of my favorite rooms in the house! And I rarely go in it.
I think economics is a vital component of these types of question. It is important to understand competition (which isn’t about doctors not holding on to their patients, but about providing them with the incentive to be at the top of their game) and supply and demand.
But this was not the point of your post, so I do not want to hijack your comments. Also, these discussions do not translate well to small snippets of impersonal communication and never come across they way they are intended. But, this is definitely a passion of mine… I could go on for hours.
Feel free to hijack. But you’re absolutely right–it’s hard to have this kind of discussion in a bunch of little responses. I wish everyone were here in Wilmington. We’d go out to coffee and go on for hours. Well, Jesse and I will have to have you and Melissa over for dinner sometime so you can talk about competition and economics and the like.
Fascinating thread of inquiry! Wish I could pour myself a cup of coffee and sit down for a economics lecture.
Overall though, I’d have to say that I’m with Yana on most of the points she made.
Debates like this can be fun, and it’s too bad we don’t have more of them. It seems like in the months leading up to the election, Jesse and I got into some pretty fun debates with people, but now that the election’s over we’re all more apt to talking about less controversial topics. It’s kind of a shame…
I, for one, just checked out this book from the library: http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Out-Leaving-America-Self-reliance/dp/0976082276
I’ve been looking into grad school in England for the express purpose of emmigrating to Europe. I hate hunting.
Audubon was a painter (who, ironically, immigrated to America from France to dodge a draft and spent much of his time here hunting). It’s spelled autobahn.
I still hold on to dreams of living in Paris. I know it’s one thing to vacation some place and an entirely different thing to live there, but still.
How cool would it be to go to grad school in Europe? If you do that, you’d officially be the Coolest Person I Know.
Man, I love controversial topics any time of the year! Anytime you guys want to engage in one, just let me know!
I am actually compiling a list of Wilmington people from a variety of viewpoints I’d love to get in one room, throw a topic out there, and see what everyone says. You guys are top of the list!
Very interesting debate here. I haven’t studied up on Europe enough to have factual arguements to back myself up, but in general, I agree with you that it is ridiculous and disingenuous for American politicians to scare the public with the fear of turning into Europe. No country or government system is perfect. None. However, the European countries have been around for a long long time. They were ond when America was born. Just as with individual people, I think there is a lot of wisdom gained with experience. Europe went through its empire stage and world conquorer/police stage, and has emerged still standing and viable in the world. I don’t know if the U.S. will be in that kind of position as our current political/economic/social upheavals continue. The things we like to forget is that no one stays on top forever, and our country should be planning how we want to be when our supremacy fades.
Scary but true, Zea. Very balanced way of looking at things.